00:00:17: Good morning everybody, ladies and gentlemen here from the third day of VIP.

00:00:24: and actually from our fifth edition of all little podcast here, from ITB which is called Beyond Business.

00:00:31: I'm very happy to have a guest today.

00:00:32: that's not an expert on tourism so much...

00:00:35: Well but I've travelled alot i'd say!

00:00:38: But

00:00:38: subjects are even more important for mankind than holidays.

00:00:42: we can put it this way Welcome Dr Frauke Fischer and acclaimed biologist on biodiversity.

00:00:50: Great having you here, thanks a lot for coming to ITB!

00:00:53: To give a little introduction about how you studied biology in Frankfurt and the US after graduation... You spent ten years at Ivory Coast as a researcher in a national park leaving the country after the breakout of civil war.

00:01:08: but beyond being biologist an expert on bio-diversity ...you're also very active communicator your topics, not only publishing in the science community but also to a broader audience.

00:01:22: You have written a book with that title which is called What Did The Mosquitoes Do For Us?

00:01:26: What

00:01:27: has the mosquito

00:01:29: ever done for us and maybe we can talk about it later what they mosquitos did or actually are still doing?

00:01:36: But to start with your experience as a field researcher and biologist, you studied the antelopes in the Ivory Coast.

00:01:44: And why are they endangered?

00:01:46: or what's the situation of antelope on the Ivary Coast?

00:01:50: To start something very precise and concrete.

00:01:54: Antelopes is unfortunately many wildlife species considered food.

00:02:00: So people hunt them and the challenge or problem is that there are more and more people, they're more efficient.

00:02:08: weapons, fire arms... And increasing population hunts increasingly on a decreasing wildlife population!

00:02:18: The idea of my PhD was actually to find out ways how sustainable way hunting outside protected areas could be beneficial to the local people, but also help increase or at least not to deplete any further the antelope populations.

00:02:36: When I got there, unfortunately had to realize that the national park... ...I was working in the Kumue National Park and Koti Boa.

00:02:43: Was a pure paper park so it existed only on paper And there were lots of hunting within the park.

00:02:50: People actually hunted more inside than outside Because when they hunted outside They always had discussions with other land stewards like farmers for example.

00:03:00: A lot kids worked at these farms.

00:03:03: Farmers didn't want the hunters to run around with their guns among the kids.

00:03:09: And then of course, while our populations outside The National Park were already very much depleted so that increased the pressure on the park and in terms of tourism for example, means that or the problem is created by this over hunting wildlife populations.

00:03:26: Is there a tourism potential?

00:03:27: Of course it dramatically sinks.

00:03:29: I mean The park i was working in traditionally historically had elephants lions rhinos wild dogs cheetah everything and these what have.

00:03:39: populations were very much depleted already And thus of course decreases Yeah!

00:03:44: The potential off such areas as Tourism destinations.

00:03:48: What's it like living in a rainforest or the national park?

00:03:53: Is it comparable to tourists experience completely different from completely

00:03:57: different.

00:03:58: Yeah, well then The Park is.

00:03:59: It's a Savannah National Park and our camp very basic research camp Very traditional straw huts actually no sanitary facilities No toilet no showers nothing.

00:04:10: So we had to drink filtered water From the river.

00:04:13: We actually swam In the River with the hippos And the crocodiles which because the crocodiles obviously were specialized fish hunters, they weren't interested in mammals such as us.

00:04:24: This river flew about more than two hundred kilometers through uninhabited land so there wasn't a danger of catching any diseases.

00:04:33: but our life was very simple produced our own electricity with a little solar panels.

00:04:40: There was no toilets, no showers... Once or twice a month we went to the city to buy food.

00:04:48: So at the first days, we had fruit salad and cheese and stuff like this And after a week there was only rice and tomato sauce for example.

00:04:58: Okay so that's way of life you could never ever sell as tourist products.

00:05:05: Well actually I don't know.

00:05:07: The only tourists who visited the park were people from German embassy.

00:05:12: They found it quite interesting to visit this german research station.

00:05:17: for them it was like a super adventure swimming in the river no air condition, I don't know cold drinks at in-the-evening.

00:05:26: No cocktails or anything... For them it's just been an adventure and they were very enthusiastic tourists but only two to three days.

00:05:35: so you can probably sell this as Once in a lifetime experience, but not so much as kind of luxury relaxing tourism experience.

00:05:45: I mean as i know from the ivory coast The Ivory Coast is a country that relies heavily on on agriculture and it's a large producer Of cocoa for example even if i think even the largest In the world.

00:05:56: yes in exporting.

00:05:57: So you have these big big plantation cultures?

00:06:01: And they are eating away the wildlife.

00:06:03: Yes destroying the wild life.

00:06:06: looking at all that Placing a global industry like agriculture in contrast to tourism, which is also the global industry.

00:06:15: Would you say it's more dangerous for wildlife and biodiversity?

00:06:19: or comparison that doesn't make sense?

00:06:23: If we look at there are five drivers of biodiversity loss The largest driver actually land use change And most of this is done for agriculture.

00:06:31: So if we look on scale We can definitely say Ivory Coast.

00:06:37: In the long term, they would have been much better off if they were focused on tourism not on monocultures of Kokua.

00:06:46: Because what happens now, you're right.

00:06:48: They are the largest producer of cocoa but with these monocultures they know how the soil is depleted there's an increase in diseases and pests because it's a monoculture so its haven for certain pests or disease.

00:07:04: So the production of cocoa might come to end in Côte d'Ivoire And that terrible.

00:07:12: Well, product they sell and with the increase of cocoa production.

00:07:16: They have destroyed all then other natural resources.

00:07:19: there's no rainforests There are no elephants left their very very few chimps that even in the savannah region And at least in transition zone between rainforest and savannas because they destroyed an entire national park to produce cocoa.

00:07:34: So if this now comes to end Well, there's little alternatives.

00:07:38: and if we look at the long-term benefit of tourism especially when it's sustainable tourism then a sustainable wildlife tourism would have been possible eternally.

00:07:49: So If you look short term revenues well... We can say that destruction on basis life for many makes few rich Tourism.

00:08:03: if it's yeah, but sustainable tourism.

00:08:05: It's much better a better decision.

00:08:07: Yeah I mean If i would be an economic advisor from let say the world bank or something?

00:08:11: I would rather recommend to those countries rather invest in sustainable sort of nature tourism then agricultural plantations and export production.

00:08:21: Is this what we would basically agree with?

00:08:24: Definitely, especially because we now see new markets.

00:08:27: it's... We see for example markets for payment for ecosystem services And if you look at natural ecosystems they provide all of us With a lot of ecosystem services such as clean air, clean water, fertile soils pollination Services etc.

00:08:43: So-and we know see an emerging market in these payments for ecosystem services.

00:08:49: So in the future, if you have a healthy ecosystem it might be a coral reef or mangrove rain forest Savannah.

00:08:58: You might not only be able to sell it as a tourist destination but at the same time you make money with selling Ecosystem Services and that's something only natural ecosystems can do.

00:09:10: When we look at mentality of decision makers let say the Ivory Coast because You still change in mentality or use the openness with politicians and other decision makers.

00:09:24: about this kind of strategy.

00:09:26: Well, unfortunately we see little off this and I think one of the saddest history...I just have to mention this because in our own podcast which is About Animals & Nature Conservation We were talking about Madagascar.

00:09:38: Madagasca is absolutely unique when you look at the wildlife it has!

00:09:43: It's the only country on the world where you can see lemurs..it has an absolutely unique ecology....absolutely unique ecosystems.

00:09:51: today There are people starving in Madagascar, although the forest is gone.

00:09:57: People becoming more and poorer And that's actually based on terrible political decisions.

00:10:04: The same is true for Ivory Coast, I mean you said we had to leave when the Civil War broke out and there was a scientific analysis of this... ...and people actually said or scientists found out.. ..that the main driver for the outbreak of the civil war was the depletion of natural resources because then people start attacking each other.

00:10:23: A couple of weeks ago the case secret service at the government published a report on security global security or mainly security for EU and UK in relation to ecosystem services.

00:10:36: And it's not publication by An NGO, it's a publication by Secret Service of the country in this case UK and they say.

00:10:45: The biggest security risk for you KMTU is that depletion off ecosystem services because this will end up show this quite clearly this will increase organized crimes this one crease terrorism.

00:10:58: it will increase conflicts within an between countries.

00:11:02: so Everybody who wants to think about tourism and economy in the future, not only tourism but all economies of the future should focus on the protection of ecosystem services.

00:11:14: And this is not only true for governments in Cote d'Ivoire or Madagascar it's also true for European governments.

00:11:20: It's very sad that hardly we talk about these issues even though its considered actually our biggest challenge.

00:11:28: You are joining the ITB Congress and you were in a session some minutes ago.

00:11:32: And speaking in front of large audience, who spoke also about AI?

00:11:37: I don't want to talk so much more basic things than what is the basic message she wants to give an industry like tourism?

00:11:46: and do you think that tourism can have impact for the better?

00:11:50: Can they do something?

00:11:51: or What's the basic messages he wanted

00:11:52: to spread?

00:11:53: They definitely can do something.

00:11:55: first People that engage people that visit each other hopefully won't kill each other.

00:12:00: So I think this is a very important argument for tourism, but people get to know people from other countries.

00:12:07: are the cultures at people that speak other languages have other beliefs?

00:12:11: so i think yeah well like increasing global friendship in way it's a very importance aspect of tourism.

00:12:18: then when we look at many many forms of tourism.

00:12:23: To them, intact nature is the asset they want to sell.

00:12:26: If you want to have divers in the Maldives... You have to have intact coral reefs or intact mangroves.

00:12:31: if you want people visiting South Africa and East Africa ...you'll need a big five for healthy populations.

00:12:38: If we wanted people visiting the Amazon there should be a healthy rainforest.

00:12:44: Unfortunately with the destruction of nature the possibilities where it can actually go to sea and techniatrists are reduced.

00:12:52: And this eventually will lead to the destruction of our economy, that the collapse off our economy.

00:12:58: Of course in the economic sector we'll lose first is tourism.

00:13:04: So if people want other people travel or sell tourism as a product... If you want to sell destinations for a product, ecosystems have to be healthy.

00:13:14: Ecosystem services has to be in place.

00:13:18: I think the message is clear, but how can we achieve it?

00:13:21: It might be more complicated and difficult.

00:13:25: As far as what i know from industry you have a lot of people who are dedicated and really devoted to sustainability and nature protection.

00:13:33: But on the other hand You also have this tendency of greenwashing which you see in many places And only for façade.

00:13:43: So What would be your strategy?

00:13:46: What would be the action plan?

00:13:47: Yeah, I think it's a lot about.

00:13:49: You mentioned that one of my major tasks in these days is communication and so what i do... I'm professor at The University talking to sea level people in the economy..I talk as many people as possible About the importance of biodiversity and ecosystem services.

00:14:05: So you mention they are people dedicated And They have to raise their voices Because they're the ones who understand sustainability and tourism who understand the business, while those think well just take make waste and that's not going to work.

00:14:24: It used.

00:14:35: But actually, we can say in the future you either have a sustainable business model or don't.

00:14:42: So I think there should be much more pride and saying that i am a sustainability person.

00:14:55: Would you say that the whole issue of biodiversity gets too little attention compared to the whole climate change discussion and biodiversity is a completely different.

00:15:06: It was connected, but it's not so much on the focus like like climate change.

00:15:11: yet definitely actually I mean just say something quite provocative Climate change is not our problem.

00:15:17: If climate change increases or goes accelerates, the question is if we don't cover—if you don't deal seriously with the loss of biodiversity and ecosystem services —climate change will only decide whether it's a little bit warmer or colder when we go extinct.

00:15:34: And before we go to extinction, our economy will collapse Our social systems everything will collapse.

00:15:40: So we really, have a very high interest in doing something about it and of course its important to fight climate change but actually the most economic way is to invest in intact nature Because nature is the best way, for example to sequester carbon.

00:16:00: You know it's much better to have a blue whale –a one hundred year old blue whale that contains I don't know fifteen tons of carbon than invest in carbon storage somewhere on the soil or whatever!

00:16:15: So yeah... The best way to fight climate change is investing in nature, protecting nature and restoring nature.

00:16:23: That's the best ways you can fight climate changes.

00:16:25: At the end of our little podcast conversation here, we need to talk about Mosquito which you mentioned in your book.

00:16:32: I remember that i had an interview with a colleague from yours and he also worked at the Ivory Coast, Mr Christopher Bush?

00:16:40: Oh yeah!

00:16:41: He died...I

00:16:42: think it was one of his most famous researches

00:16:47: Twenty years with these chimpanzees.

00:16:50: And he said in that interview, the biggest tragedy or a real problem of today life is that humans only care for humans.

00:16:58: Humans are only interested In humans.

00:17:00: we watch movies about new humans We read books and the animals are far back behind them.

00:17:06: That's not the time where we need to talk about the mosquito.

00:17:09: Why should you care?

00:17:12: The answer is quite simple, and actually there... We go back to Ivory Coast in the cocoa.

00:17:17: Mosquitos are most important pollinators for cocoa so if they wouldn't beat mosquitoes then it won't be any chocolate.

00:17:24: So I think that a very simple answer without mosquitos will have no chocolate.

00:17:30: This hopefully convinces many people that we need to protect the mosquito.

00:17:33: Because only this special type of mosquito

00:17:36: can enter?

00:17:37: The flowers are very, very tiny!

00:17:39: So many people think well but honeybees are good pollinators But honey bees a much too large.

00:17:44: To enter the flower over cacao flower.

00:17:48: You have to have tiny, tiny pollinaters And major pollinator, main pollinator actually two species Of mosquitos.

00:17:56: That's one little example.

00:17:58: Yeah, maybe

00:18:01: I just one last word because you mentioned AI and what Christoph Bursch said.

00:18:05: then back.

00:18:05: Then AI might help us to better understand animals in the pure sense.

00:18:11: so chimps communicate with each other, whales communicate with the other elephants communicate.

00:18:17: And AI which is very good in finding difference or analyzing patterns might help us to understand what they're actually saying to each other and this will hopefully for many people bring animals closer to them.

00:18:30: For example when it was published that whales have whale songs there were a huge public interest stopping whaling because people realize, well these are not stupid animals.

00:18:42: These are animals.

00:18:43: they sing and communicate.

00:18:45: That's one of the examples where we hope that AI helps us too

00:18:51: To improve our knowledge about animals and biodiversity, to learn faster what it's all about.

00:18:57: This is such a great topic that we could go on

00:19:01: with this.

00:19:01: We're editing in the perfect studio so

00:19:05: maybe one more hour not running out of issues or topics but this is basically an ITB show where everybody is in a rush!

00:19:13: And everybody's rushing to the next appointment.

00:19:15: You told me you have to catch your train to Frankfurt, so Dr.

00:19:19: Frager Fischer it was a pleasure having you.

00:19:20: It was very interesting and I hope we can spread the message Yes We will care about the mosquitoes in all these other beautiful creatures on this planet.

00:19:29: Thanks a lot.

00:19:30: Thank you for the invitation.