00:00:16: Hello everybody to another podcast of ITB.

00:00:20: My name is Martin Jaffeld, I'm your host for the next twenty or twenty five minutes and the topic we want to talk about today are called KPIs which means E-Performance Indicators & Their Role in Tourism.

00:00:36: so that sounds a bit technical right from start but don't make it too technical at all Because more than anything, KPR are basically a tool or method or benchmarking set to improve services and standards in the tourism industry.

00:00:52: Basically speaking!

00:00:54: And obviously there is still many things that can be improved because all of them we will ask what KPI could do for this purpose?

00:01:04: So with these reasons I am very delighted to have two acclaimed guests who were

00:01:09: experts

00:01:10: Not only in tourism, but also.

00:01:13: In the field of KPI and then they fill up measurement benchmarking end market research and for that very reason first of all I'm delighted to have Mr Janik Müller.

00:01:25: hello Yannick it's great to have you here no so you are there.

00:01:29: head-of-market research off their tourism organization of North Rhine-Westphalia which is maybe for our non-German listeners, the biggest federal state in Germany.

00:01:41: It's also having an important role for tourism in Germany and North Rhines-Westfalia actually applies to the Olympics right as far I know?

00:01:50: Correct yes there was a participation from everyone involved.

00:01:56: who is willing to host Olympic Games?

00:01:59: Yeah, and furthermore it's also my home state so I'm always keep an eye on North Rhine this failure what's going.

00:02:05: So we will hear about North Rhino Westphalia.

00:02:08: My second guest is Mr Kai Patale who was a consultant in an expert on tourism development with his own company benchmarking services?

00:02:19: And mr patali has very great international expertise from many countries worldwide like Vietnam liked Egypt like Bosnia and many, many other countries.

00:02:31: And he has worked with GIZ and was in many other developmental organizations.

00:02:37: so we will have an international perspective and a view from the global south.

00:02:43: Thanks for having you here.

00:02:45: Kai

00:02:45: Hi Martin thank you good to be here.

00:02:47: To start with you Janik what is the biggest?

00:02:50: What is the most significant challenge for tourism in North and Westphalia?

00:02:54: I mean i've mentioned the application of the Olympics.

00:02:58: This is still very much in the future.

00:03:00: I'm sure there are many other things that are happening in your daily world, so what's the biggest issues you're working with?

00:03:06: Yeah as you said Osiris-Helios was one of the biggest regions and also very diverse.

00:03:12: We have big cities like Cologne, Düsseldorf.

00:03:15: Also we are growing nature-based tourism regions such as Eifel on Sauerland also a very important business travel segment and for the last year there was good growth in city tourism based on events and cultural experience And also in the nature activities like cycling.

00:03:36: hiking is something that can benefit from but however they're some challenges.

00:03:43: on one hand to have KPI sets, something like that.

00:03:46: We all can put our experience and decisions in it.

00:03:51: so we need to see patterns revolving around this KPI set.

00:03:56: We also need to extract data from different sources as well as what will happen if you use these experiences or the data limitations we can use for our work.

00:04:12: That's something that we need to work on, so if not only collect data and collect even more data every year but also uses data to implement in our strategic decisions?

00:04:25: Yeah!

00:04:25: So were already into the details.

00:04:27: was it about observing patterns like visitor streams and then turning these patterns Useful knowledge and into useful practice.

00:04:41: So, Kai you come from a very different background in front of the very different work.

00:04:45: experience worked very much on an international context for many countries and regions in the global south.

00:04:53: so what is your perspective on the most pressing issues on tourism?

00:04:57: From a global perspectives or form your background from your professional background?

00:05:02: yeah thanks.

00:05:03: when we talk about The challenges of tourism.

00:05:07: I think the starting point is that tourism has become much more complex nowadays, and success can not only be measured by growth indicators such as arrivals or revenue.

00:05:19: And we see now that tourism needs to be socially accepted so it creates decent jobs with respect for environmental limits which improves quality of life in its destinations In the globe itself, I think this becomes even more critical because tourism is not just an economic sector.

00:05:42: It's often a development tool and it's linked to employment, to SME development women's participation infrastructure in foreign exchange

00:05:54: Yeah.

00:05:54: so their social dimensions they become more important on many levels.

00:05:58: And its also very much connected with issue like over-tourism which affects social surroundings, so it has many layers.

00:06:06: It has many levels and maybe KPI can help on that and bring us closer to some solutions to these issues.

00:06:14: but for our listeners who are not familiar with the whole issue of KPI, the ATB published a big report about this year's ITB.

00:06:25: There is certainly strong demand over this entire issue in KPI.

00:06:32: KPI basically is or maybe one of your other two, can you give an explanation?

00:06:38: What are they and what kind of difference can we make.

00:06:43: We work like since a very long time with KPIs.

00:06:48: it's always some question of definition...what does the KPI mean?

00:06:52: You try to define as in beginning this talk but main thing that we need to define which KPIs are useful for us.

00:07:01: Over the time, there were different KPI sets we tried and used.

00:07:05: We always have to develop those KPI set to get the most out of it.

00:07:11: So like I just said There is not really an acceptance of APIs but more openness to using KPIs because it's a big market of firms providing different markets, insights and KPIs.

00:07:27: We need to filter if that is useful for us or we are trying to develop something.

00:07:33: We implemented an internal scorecard in order to measure our success in the tourism sector but also we're developing into more sustainable view on KPIs.

00:07:46: so we developed KPI set designed to measure the impact we have on with our tourism part in North Australia, to sustainable tourism.

00:07:56: So that's something we worked on last year and were trying to implement it this year as a following years.

00:08:02: That is something we did nationwide.

00:08:04: so KPI said We can use in different regions and compare them with each other And thats' something we are very proud of because has helped us see where we're standing And that's something our stakeholders are very open to.

00:08:20: We need to see if it is something we can provide over a long time, If It Is Something That Can Stick?

00:08:26: If Its Something That We Can Use To Develop Even A Better Tucson For Our Guests Or The People Living Here

00:08:34: I Mean Basically.

00:08:35: It Is Not A New Tool.

00:08:36: I Mean Big Companies or Business Corporations.

00:08:39: I mean for them its Very Normal To Use KPIs For Their Revenues Or Measuring Their Customer Behavior.

00:08:46: What do you think?

00:08:47: what's the rule outside of corporations?

00:08:49: Is it very accepted, is it very normal like for example a DMO destination management organization?

00:08:57: are they familiar in working with KPIs.

00:09:00: Okay so the KPIs I think their very important tool and play an important role as that brings structure into a very complex system.

00:09:11: discussions are sometimes quite abstract.

00:09:15: We talk about sustainability, competitiveness or resilience but without measurement.

00:09:21: these remain concepts rather than management tools.

00:09:25: so KPIs help to translate the ideas into something actionable more tangible.

00:09:34: one information from this ITB report is that KPIs helps organizations move away from reacting to an intuition or crisis towards a more

00:09:46: proactive,

00:09:47: informed decision-making process.

00:09:49: So it has to do with the skills of staff and people are not trained for that kind of measurement at that benchmarking or whatever special tool is needed?

00:10:00: Yeah

00:10:00: like designing meaningful indicators collecting reliable data and interpreting them correctly –that requires skill!

00:10:10: The skill set is not always available in the organizations.

00:10:15: You would say that it's true from many experiences, and there are a lack of skills?

00:10:21: Have you witnessed or observed this on many occasions?

00:10:25: It really depends which country and how much attention is given to the tourism sector.

00:10:37: And it starts also from government side to connect the tourism strategies with operational concept, company concepts of the tourism boards.

00:10:49: So... It differs!

00:10:51: Janik you work for a destination management organization basically?

00:10:55: A big destination management organizations though I would assume There's a lot of experience and knowledge, many skills when it comes to KPIs.

00:11:05: So how long your organization is working with KPIs?

00:11:08: Is this rather new tool or do you have quite the long experience with it?

00:11:12: Or what does it like for KPIs in North and Westphalia?

00:11:17: We're on one hand very traditional indicators such as overnight stays, occupancy rates, source markets... Very important KPIs.

00:11:29: We already standardize and we can benchmark those KPIs, for example against previous years or other German states.

00:11:37: And on the other hand... ...we have increasingly focused more on qualitative and forward-looking KPIs including guest satisfaction, print perception,... ...or digital performance metrics like engagement rates etc.

00:11:52: That's something that we developed over the last couple of years And the major development, like I told you before is the integration of sustainable KPIs.

00:12:01: So it's a system developed with partners nationwide to see if those newer KPIs are more helpful or help.

00:12:10: in another part we would like too who give much larger focus during next couple years.

00:12:16: so its important that these KPIs good implemented and thats useful for us among our residents and the quality of life.

00:12:26: is that something we like to track accessibility, seasonality or overall part greenhouse emissions.

00:12:35: We would like to check what's impact on green house emissions related to our tourism to northeastern Australia?

00:12:41: This is a set very new.

00:12:43: Yeah I mean you mentioned your stakeholders and their stakeholders are basically local communities the local DMORs or so many others.

00:12:52: You see a lot of acceptance from your stakeholders when it comes to such an approach?

00:12:58: I think acceptance is wrong word, i think its more like an openness.

00:13:02: they are open for something new but foreign exceptions there needs be process that's more like communicate like thats a new KPI everyone has to obey and everyone need use it.

00:13:15: with some thing we can develop together And there's a general openness and if we are successful in implementing the new KPI, so that probably great acceptance.

00:13:25: We can build on trying UKPIs with this method like try to develop.

00:13:32: We implement it at our level and try them get an acceptance of levels such as regional or city-level.

00:13:40: Kai you mentioned tourism has become much more complex in the world, like it has been ten or twenty years ago.

00:13:49: And there's importance that we need to focus on so-called newer KPIs which are dedicated to quality of tours and not so many numbers and revenue numbers looking at things such as sustainability biodiversity climate change.

00:14:11: Would you think that KPI, they can make a big difference or have a big impact on these issues?

00:14:16: That it really triggers some sort of change in policy.

00:14:21: Yeah definitely!

00:14:23: Janik said when we spoke about the economic foundation... ...when we talk about occupancy revenue this will still exist.

00:14:31: however now.. ..we are broadening the system of KPIs into this qualitative dimension And we talk about quality of life, resident satisfaction environmental impacts or labor conditions.

00:14:46: So We're not only measuring the tourism performance but also its contribution to decent work gender equality climate action and local economic development.

00:14:59: so in the context over tourism The key issue is a management capacity and KPIs can help to identify the pressure early before it's actually a visible problem.

00:15:14: And in terms of inclusion, tourism still has a gap.

00:15:18: We often talk about inclusive tourism but we don't really measure properly.

00:15:25: If inclusion matters... ...we need indicators that show who participates Who benefits and makes decisions.

00:15:35: So I think the future of KPI is not choosing between profit and purpose, but it's about connecting them.

00:15:44: This has become more important because we now see what are the limits to

00:15:49: tourism?

00:15:51: Ten years ago like social limit or pollution overuse of resources... Is this where KPIs can come into place?

00:16:01: Yeah, I mean we want to measure something in the long term.

00:16:06: Not just for a short-term action but if you don't measure... You're not monitoring and you cannot adapt your behavior.

00:16:17: And that also has an influence on businesses In the tourism ecosystem.

00:16:24: They need clarity, they need information and the KPIs help to steer the process or helped you navigate into the right direction.

00:16:34: So many things have been achieved already?

00:16:37: And maybe for my last question I would like to compare tourism in Germany compared with tourism in the global south... ...and I think for you in Northern Westphalia as skills And qualification is probably not a problem right you have enough people or your staff are capable and skilled enough to work on these complex issues into working with KPI.

00:16:59: Is that right?

00:17:00: Yes, we do have my position like the head of market research yes but it's something We can put in skill.

00:17:07: we can train skills too see how KPIs need to be read and how to adapt what some thing we had seen last year.

00:17:16: so something maybe globally is also the question of budget.

00:17:22: There are a lot of KPIs who were very, very costive to see through.

00:17:27: even in long run it's even harder.

00:17:29: so it's a question of budgets.

00:17:31: if we can use KPIs there're a lot people that can analyze data.

00:17:37: Maybe they'll see something and develop great systems for used data.

00:17:42: but this isn't going with information.

00:17:48: It's hard to get data in the long run.

00:17:50: That is something we see, but on this side with a skill set it's very easy to learn and easy to see.

00:17:57: In KPI said if someone explains that you are doing great way or good way You can also implicate something where If your data shows specific pattern then directly what is correct thing the short run or in the long run, that's something easy to learn.

00:18:18: Okay so when you get used it gets more optimized and then becomes easier.

00:18:23: but as I said budget can always be an issue right?

00:18:27: If there are budget constraints of course everything is limited.

00:18:32: So Kai what would you say from a global south perspective?

00:18:36: Is this lack skills?

00:18:38: Is it a lack of budget Or is its needs needed?

00:18:41: Yeah, well KPIs do have these limitations.

00:18:45: I mean not everything can be measured easily and so as Janik said the data collection can be very expensive.

00:18:54: even The indicators can be misinterpreted.

00:18:58: So poorly designed KPIs Can maybe lead to wrong governmental incentives?

00:19:04: And i think it's more something to really start with strategy first and not indicators, and define what success looks like.

00:19:18: Then you can start a limited set of KPIs that doesn't overload the system which supports vision.

00:19:27: That makes sense!

00:19:27: You need to have a strategy at firsthand then get into more detailed stuff right?

00:19:34: To start was a strategy... So I hope we shed some light on this very complex, but hopefully not too technical topic.

00:19:42: And if you want to know more about it and get a good and compact overview of the capabilities of KPI they use in practice... ...I can recommend this year's ITB Travel & Tourism Report using KPIs for decision-making.

00:19:57: navigating market emotion take look at linkitbcom-reports.

00:20:05: Thank you Kai, thank you Janik for having me here on our little podcast and thanks to your contributions.