00:00:17: Good afternoon, everybody here from our second podcast of the ITB and the ITBC convention in the midst a busy day already.

00:00:27: Joschka Fischer is with me And I'm glad to have him here.

00:00:30: It's such an honor and such privilege and such pleasure having him here.

00:00:36: Basically for people my generation growing up in West Germany being baby boomer.

00:00:42: he doesn't need any introduction because I simply grew up with him and he was such a familiar figure for my generation, like Nina Hagen or Wolf Biermann of Helmut Kohl.

00:00:54: Or so many other people... So He always on the scene in West Germany Like me.

00:01:00: but i think for the generations that And also our international audience which comes from far away we might need little introduction.

00:01:09: Joschka Fischer you have been political activist in the seventies, and the Frankfurt area which was in those days it's called the Sponte Milieu.

00:01:20: Later on you became a central figure of the Green Movement that became The Green Party.

00:01:27: later on you become first green minister at the state of Hessen where we took oaths in sneaker shoes... ...which were big scandals back then hard to imagine nowadays, but in those days it was.

00:01:41: And later on you were the first foreign minister of the First Red and Green Government under Chancellor Schröder from Ninety-Eight to Two Thousand and

00:01:52: Five.

00:01:53: If I remember that correctly when you stepped out of active politics... ...And When You Left The Parliament In two thousand six You said That You Were The Last Rock'n Roller Of German Politics if i quote you correctly.

00:02:07: Yeah I still remember that it's set now a long time ago, but you think its true for today?

00:02:13: That he was the last rock and roller in German politics.

00:02:17: or do you see any other Rock & Roller.

00:02:19: Well...

00:02:20: You have to understand this situation.

00:02:24: It was directly after my election campaign And it is quite clear that i will leave politics.

00:02:36: I made an election campaign which was based on filling big crowds, marketplaces with big crowds.

00:02:52: So for green this was very unusual because usually we don't have the capabilities to mobilize big crowds but i could make it so.

00:03:06: whether there are rock and rollers nowadays?

00:03:10: Okay, so we leave that open to the audience and to the public.

00:03:14: And were living in difficult times since last week?

00:03:17: Times have even become more difficult!

00:03:20: You told me already you didn't change your speech over the weekend So this was already on the frame or picture.

00:03:27: as expected it come?

00:03:29: I expected yes definitely after Netanyahu made his visit to Washington DC.

00:03:38: For me, it was quite clear that something is in the making.

00:03:43: And before we had a terrible and bloody repression of the people manifestations on the streets... People were shot at short distance In the eye.

00:04:02: some ten thousand Iranians, very courageous Iranians were murdered.

00:04:10: So it was quite clear.

00:04:12: something will happen

00:04:13: again.

00:04:14: going back into history.

00:04:16: I remember two thousand three when you are still in office at the Munich Security Council and The US Was At The Brink of Iraq War.

00:04:24: In Those Days You Said Into The Direction Of Mr Rumsfeld Who?

00:04:28: Was in those Days A Secretary of Defense?

00:04:31: You Say These Famous Words.

00:04:33: I'm not convinced.

00:04:35: Does this, twenty-three years later is a sentence that's still all true?

00:04:40: or... Or it even stronger?

00:04:43: That you would say, ''I am strongly

00:04:44: opposing.''?

00:04:45: What's your stand on this?

00:04:48: I'm no longer in the office so i´m private citizen.

00:04:54: There are contradictions between international law and attack But the international law cannot be an excuse for doing nothing.

00:05:07: after the terrible bloodshed against peaceful manifesters in Iran.

00:05:14: Israel has a case that it will not allow Iran to deliver nuclear weapons because this would exterminate the state of Israel and Jewish people.

00:05:33: So I think it was extremely short-sighted, and foolish by the Iranian leadership especially after the twelve days war last year which they have lost with Israel to react in a way that led to self destruction.

00:05:55: international law cannot be used as an excuse for a blood-sirsty dictatorship.

00:06:07: There is a contradiction, I see that but i will be always on the side of peaceful democratic manifestos.

00:06:18: moving away from this actual conflict and maybe looking at the bigger picture.

00:06:25: In the days when Berlin Wall came down, the age of globalization took speed again and the world seemed to become so open by open tariff agreements with less visa restrictions.

00:06:38: The tourism industry was an industry that benefited enormously from it.

00:06:43: So travel has become much easier more convenient cheaper than in the past.

00:06:50: That was maybe the nineties after that.

00:06:55: So people in many ways are more experienced, more cultural.

00:06:58: More multilingual.

00:06:59: so we all live in a much more globalized world.

00:07:03: but on the other hand nowadays We work up in a world where People seem to be very biased Very intolerant and narrow-minded And we woke up In an hostile environment.

00:07:15: Looking at these last thirty or thirty five years Something went wrong.

00:07:20: What basically?

00:07:22: that the world has not become more tolerant, more open-minded as we all hoped it to be in the eighties and nineties.

00:07:29: Well

00:07:30: I think there was a certain naivety in this hope.

00:07:34: The reality is different.

00:07:36: What you see now are emerging of new global order based on power Not any longer on rules.

00:07:48: a new world order based on the rivalry of global powers like China, US and others.

00:07:57: Let's face reality!

00:07:59: On one hand I think... ...the rise in China or India is changing the world.

00:08:06: The rise of the Global Souths are changing the World And we as old Europe are in decline.

00:08:18: If you look to the demographic realities, we are in a serious decline.

00:08:23: And at that same moment... ...we need young people but we reject any form of immigration.

00:08:37: It's a contradiction My point-of-view.

00:08:42: We have war in Ukraine and now there is war around Iran.

00:08:48: That's a very insecure world and the rivalry of the big powers will increase the insecurity.

00:08:56: I think tourism industry, we'll have to adjust this new reality.

00:09:02: on the other hand as human beings Will continue to travel?

00:09:08: And it would be more than ever in In The figures.

00:09:16: Chinese tourists are traveling Indian tourists are traveling.

00:09:20: The Global Sours, tomorrow it will be Africa which we'll travel.

00:09:27: so the world will not stand still.

00:09:32: I mean you gave a very pessimistic outlook on the present and even more in future Which is totally justified and causally reasonable.

00:09:42: but being here at ITB maybe spotlighting some sort of optimism, would you think that travel can make a difference in the positive way?

00:09:50: In ways of mutual understanding.

00:09:53: I don't know.

00:09:53: when i started to travel as young man was eighteen years.

00:10:00: it was France Italy Spain.

00:10:04: these were different countries like China today and tourism contributed the recalibration of the Franco-German relationship.

00:10:19: Definitely, but on the other side I don't know whether this will take place in a problem.

00:10:28: For example looking at the European Union after forty five that's a success story.

00:10:33: The unification of Europe and reconciliation with France And other enemies from Germany Things like city partnerships or private traveling, so that made a big difference in that way.

00:10:47: Yeah but we also learned the everyday life of different people more in details... The cuisine, kitchen is an important element and it happens nowadays with Asia.

00:11:06: if you look around Berlin Vietnamese and Chinese restaurants, it's not on the Berlin.

00:11:15: It is everywhere!

00:11:16: Asian food has more or less a normality of everyday life in Europe.

00:11:24: The globalized world will live here?

00:11:25: Yeah...it's globalised.

00:11:28: but also I mean ...I like good food And i liked experience knowing new foods.

00:11:41: It's you now,

00:11:42: obviously.

00:11:43: I mean this morning.

00:11:44: my first guest was a peace activist from Palestine and he is the tour operator working in Palestine.

00:11:51: He's doing joint tours through The West Bank with an Israeli guy.

00:11:56: And then he said okay You get two sides of his story.

00:11:58: We're telling the whole story A Palestinian story and the Israelis' stories.

00:12:02: There are always Two side of their story Even true for Berlin If we look at East & West.

00:12:07: So they might get completely different picture.

00:12:10: He was very encouraging in that way and then he said, it's only the politicians who divide us.

00:12:20: And we as a people can come together.

00:12:23: but do you don't see like this?

00:12:26: I think

00:12:28: the problem would be minor if it were to politicians But unfortunately two peoples are fighting Almost since eighty years for the same territory, that's a problem.

00:12:44: And it is very tragic situation

00:12:48: and there are little exits to this strategy in these days.

00:12:53: I

00:12:54: don't see.

00:12:55: my last question have you been a devoted traveler?

00:12:58: through your lifetime?

00:12:59: I mean, in your leisure time not in your business.

00:13:01: There was

00:13:02: a time when I traveled and

00:13:04: there were

00:13:05: some million kilometers.

00:13:07: But

00:13:08: that's not pleasant.

00:13:09: is it pleasant or... It

00:13:11: ...I always tried to reserve very short times for experiences more detailed knowledge about the country For example India.

00:13:28: I was extremely interested also in the history of India.

00:13:35: Now, India is a vast country.

00:13:36: It's

00:13:37: tremendous!

00:13:37: Its very different and very diverse And for me... ...I always try to get an even short impression about historical legacy over country.

00:13:58: So even as a diplomat there was time for doing that?

00:14:01: Well, I made my time.

00:14:04: Besides your diplomatic career...

00:14:07: I travelled also a lot when i was young man and had no money.

00:14:14: so i was hitchhiking in Europe & the Middle East.

00:14:19: it's an impressive experience which formed me character.

00:14:25: There's always somebody picking you up.

00:14:27: You never get lost when you were hitchhiking?

00:14:29: No!

00:14:30: There is always someone who comes and helps out of the

00:14:32: world... Well, it's a…you've always had friendly people And they picked your up.

00:14:40: It was okay – it was fine.

00:14:44: The most important element for us …it was

00:14:47: cheap.

00:14:47: It was cheap in those days.

00:14:50: In those days there wasn't Special traveling for young kids in the trains.

00:15:00: There were no special tickets and so.

00:15:03: but I want to see the world starting with Europe, and I saw it.

00:15:08: Yeah And it formed your character?

00:15:10: And uh i think its experience stay for a lifetime right.

00:15:14: yeah mr.

00:15:14: Fisher thank you very much.

00:15:16: It was great having you.

00:15:18: it was a pleasure.

00:15:19: It was a privilege.

00:15:20: Thanks a lot for having us.

00:15:21: thanks a lot

00:15:23: Thank You The End.